A conversation with Katie Wallack about arriving at the new Commercials Contract that was negotiated between SAG-AFTRA and the JPC in 2019.
UW Voices: Mike C. Nelson, Rob Fitzgerald, Kevin Ashworth
Guest Voice: Katie Wallack
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and we're rolling on the union working podcast at Culver City Studios with podcasts. Age Union working is a grassroots organization of film, television and commercial performers of SAG AFTRA.
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Yes, I hope it's plural way. Have a guess.
Uh, first of all,
um, introduce myself. My name is Rob Fitzgerald.
I'm Mike. See, Nelson, you are very special
guest. Does Katie Wallick way you having?
You're here in this group. Now, How did how did you meet Mike and cabin, By the way, I know how you and I
Yeah, well, um, I really started to get and, well, I met you guys during the W w s.
Which are what?
The w w where the wages and working conditions
just recently heard
this was in 2015. So our 2016 negotiation, uh, we started in 2015 in the fall, doing these meetings, so the WW meetings or where actors come. Members come and say, This is what I don't like about our commercials contract. This is what I want changed or in Justin education to like asking questions about things that aren't working for them. And that might be just an enforcement issue with the contract. So there's a huge education along with, like, making changes,
and so you're basically creating. You want to create a stronger contract or newer contract? Okay,
Yeah. Remember in
the 1st 1st got involved as well. I was green, I didn't know anything. And I was sick and tired of going to auditions and bitching and moaning with other actors. Man like, Yeah, I feel like SAG should be doing this or second be doing that and be like, Well, I'm not really doing anything except pitching it,
hoping that an audition waiting, reading him. Yeah, you
don't strike me as a pitcher and moaner
not not not necessarily,
but I just I was uninformed. You'd hear the stuff and you're like, Why are we only getting 3500 bucks for cable? Man,
where you work? Yeah, So that's certainly
one thing. Members do it W W.
I want more money for sure who doesn't want more money, but they also want to work more t
o. But it was great, like going to the W. W. Is in 2015. I was green. I knew a few people there, but not a lot. And there wasn't, you know, there wasn't a 1,000,000,000 people there. There was, you know, they said it was better attendance, you know, back then, but I was still green. I didn't know Robert's rules that they use at meetings. In the decorum of you.
There's a lot to learn, right? There's a tremendous learning curve. There's advocate. There's also, I
mean, learning how to articulate your own thoughts. And then people come in maybe the first time getting involved in. There's an idea, like, how come there isn't a tracking system for commercials? And I have to say I give the staff a lot of credit because I feel like every every new person who gets involved. That's one of the first questions, and they answer every single time with with grace and courtesy, as if it's the first time they've ever heard it. And and you know that's a whole other episode is attracting, but but that it's in that it's in education. And, I mean, I got involved because I have trust issues. And so unless I know what's going on and I ask a lot of questions and get answers, then, um, I don't trust what's happening. And then I got as I asked more questions, and I I got those answers. It was almost like chess. I'm not really a chest person, but But there are a bunch of moves that everybody knows. And then you get to that zone where, like, Oh, there hasn't been a move here yet, and that's where it gets really exciting. And that's where this contract that we just unprecedented, unprecedented.
Uh, let's talk about now that we've figured out how you
Yeah, and to be clear, I met all
your guys through union. Yeah,
I had the pleasure of working.
We did once. No, that's right. We worked on a commercial together for a CD. W You were fantastic. You had the guy stuck in the nineties. You have the yellow at a fanny pack like the
stand back. I wish I walked away from that set with.
Yeah, well, you guys were gonna post this commercial right after this. If
we can find find it's been over years, but that is funny by going to the W W. Yes, every person goes up there and they ask a question as if their first person through and then they just get explained. The historical significance of like that is a valid question. It's been asked since 19
37. That's our education. And you know what? That's that's
important. That's an important self education. But, um, you know, I I applaud people coming in and asking questions because questions is a step away from frustration. Yeah, and
it's reassuring, though, to hear that you're not alone in your thing when you go up there. And if you would have said like Why don't we have a tracking system? And they would have said We've never thought of that. And then you'd be like, I'm walking out. What is? But to hear a bunch of people say, like that's been brought up before that. We've been working on that for the 10 years, and here's this. So
Yeah, go ahead. No, no, no. I'm just
going to say that, um
This negotiations for the commercial contract was the first time in my experience that I felt like I was in a union, and I felt I felt like I was supported. And a lot of that was also because of the celebrity commercial campaign that we started. We were brought a lot of people in that came in, spoke up for the blue collar worker where we're going to call us. Mike Nelson. You wrote this beautiful letter asking for celebrity help. And I think that was the, uh, Mike. Sure. Yeah.
Nah, shucks. It was the King starter. Yeah.
And then, um, the process where union working came in and picked up this ball and started running down the hall with it. And, you know, we banged in the walls and made mistakes and stuff. But, boy, we had this idea that we could make a difference. And, you know, we approach it from video and audio, and you guys got into a room, and I really want to talk
Guys got in the room and made what they call the kitchen.
Well, so we got
dubbed the kitchen table the kitchen table group because Ah, bunch of us were going to union working meetings. And I don't want to forget this because I want to talk about how the partnership between union working and the union and why that's important. So we'll talk about it. We'll just make a note of that. Um, but I started going to union working meetings, and they ask for volunteers to analyze surveys. Their union working sponsored some surveys anonymous surveys for casting directors, directors, producers and anybody who's agency or Agent side to talk about what their pain points were in an anonymous way. Now the
doing their own work and and doing that as well and some of that they could talk about on in a general level. But it's also just time there just wasn't enough. There is just like never enough time for them to share everything. So union, working with doing that on their own and ask for volunteers Thio, analyze these surveys and again my trust issues and, like, you know, wanting to know the answers to questions. I volunteered to do that in this little group formed Well, we got the surveys, we analyze them. We were talking about them. We were meeting like once a month or once every two weeks, and then from there we decided, Well, we want to talk to members. We want to talk to union members. We want to talk to pre members. We want to talk to fi core members. We want to talk to non union members and we put together a survey with questions to the answers that we wanted to have to get a broader scope of. What is everybody feeling like? What are the earnings people? I'm making a ton of money and in nonunion work, Um,
and how many? How many people were in this kitchen table?
It started out with the surveys that started out maybe 10 10 or 12
and this is there just union members
they're just using. Members
were just getting together. There's not staff. It was just fellows getting together to analyze these surveys, and then it sort of once we got done with the surveys and we're sort of like, well, where we have our information, it's sort of on par with what what the union is saying. Um, and we just decided, like we
were like meeting Let's keep
meeting and talking about it, and it
down to eight people and, um,
wait. Those two people, we don't care about them. They were bad at math E b O America.
They moved, They got a job, one got a job in New York in the other one, Got some work in Atlanta. So, um, you know, that was great. But I have to say, and I said this in the group, and I will say that I think anybody else in the kitchen table group, we all marvelled it like this is where we felt like the most inspired union service work. We were people that are very different opinions, very different. Um, job experiences, socioeconomic status, all of those things. But together, we we banged it out and we discuss things. We actually and,
we interrupted one another. Those things happen. We actually had this little dammit doll that we would, like hold up to take turns. Yes,
so that the Khan Khan speaking stick. Yeah, and And you know what
was great was that and there's an absence of this When when I think political parties get involved in larger discussions, is that we could go to the mat on our position or thinking on a certain issue because it wasn't personal. It was always about the issue and we could stick to that. And there's something also about a smaller group that you can. You can dive deeper, you can get more into it and we become human political parties get a little too big, and you forget that we're all here for the same purpose where actors that want
to work, I want to interject. Oh, go ahead. As much
as I've been involved in, never heard of the dammit
doll. I have no
idea why the phrase kitchen table got thrown around. Were you
meeting around the kitchen table with a joke about a kitchen sink? Everything thrown everything. So
we were meeting at people's houses, and then we ended up at Nancy Larry's house because of location for everybody around her kitchen table, and we W. W. Started and we were just trying to figure out what to do and everyone saying like we need something, something has to change. We need a flat rate. We need trying to figure this stuff out, and so we came up with an idea for an alternate compensation model and put all the numbers together. And then we went to the meeting and represented it, and I I had said I sort of hate saying this about staff. But, um, during the during the meetings the 1st 2 weeks, a bunch of people were saying the same thing. People who didn't know each other. Something has to change. I think we need a different compensation model and they said back to us, We know things have to change, but I don't think this is gonna be the negotiation where that happened. Thank
you. And I was just going to say about that. We don't have to mention we could just say someone said that.
So you don't
have to feel bad about it because I'll have to say
that person that did announce that as the head of that group did come around
well, 100% because of members.
But you guys in between
yeah, for sure
in intelligence, to the table. And that made them go, huh? Because if you're just throwing it out there in there, well, we just do this during that is one thing. But to come with. Here's the plan. They look at the plan, they go. Wow, that's exciting.
I heard several variations of Yeah, but the catalyst.
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But the catalyst was bringing that cause I remember I remember them saying that and and I again met with our kitchen table group, and I was like, You know
what? I'm gonna
present it. Anyways, I know they're saying this, but I'm a member. I have a voice. We've done something here. I'm hearing it in the rooms. I'm hearing it from our fellows, so
put it out there. And so I went to Home Depot, Home Depot, Office Depot, bought the poster boards, got my markers out, made a table. I wanted it to be visual for people to understand what we were talking about. And I was so thankful that they let us put that up there.
And I think that's what was the difference is the detail, because again you could go up to a microphone and be like I have a proposal we need to blow up our system of payment, and we need to have a guarantee year. We need to do that. It's like, Okay, that sounds cool. We can move the but someone's gonna have to sit down and crunch the numbers and that you guys crunched your own numbers on jobs You did and stuff to make sure. You know, I remember the goal was to like What was it? Revenue Revenue Neutral? Yeah. Yes, There's
one to say, Uh, this is kind of the mantra of
union working. And this is the difference between to be an m. The bitch in
mind. You can
come and be a part of the group are part of our beatings and bitch. But you always had to have a solution. Yeah. Yeah. You guys came with solution. I remember when you, uh, went up there and you talking, You taped All this happened? I'm going
eyes congratulated. I'm going. You
know what? That's an intelligent design. It really is well done. And I just We just got done with theatrical w give you. Yeah,
People are taping stuff.
Are they really not members? The staff that Let's see
that That's important. I'm actually really happy to hear that because there's such tension between members and staff. And that's why I didn't want to say something disparaging because I don't want to contribute to that. At the same time, I wanted normalize being frustrated with our union and frustrated with staff. It's like being frustrated with government, you know, local government, whatever. It takes a long time. And everybody's coming from their point of view. And that's why the partnership between members, member leaders and staff is so important. It really is. And so that's why I have respect for our staff. Staff has respect for me. So even when we disagree, when they're like, you know, change is not gonna happen in this contract like, um,
well, I'm gonna put
this out there anyway because we actually get to vote on this contract. So it wasn't defiant. It was Ah, again, like our little kitchen
table group change. Itwas way. One
and it's OK. Tohave debate. You know, I used to hate I hate the Devil's Advocate. I grew up with narcissists and and and they would argue for argument's sake, and so I just didn't play. But I'm actually, uh, I'm in Grad school right now and one of our class. But one of the classes was on dialogue, and I got a Really I got a new appreciation for the devil's advocate and the opposite point of view and that debate, because it forces you to think through and dig deeper into your position. It's not always to change your mind or like what I grew up with, where I have to win it. Really. It really galvanized your idea and forced you to think farther outside the box. And you may change your mind or you or you find that thing that makes it 100%
better. You don't want
to be an echo chamber. You want to be challenged, and and you're good at that because, uh, one of the things we came to your house because after I know I'm going
bit in the future because first of all, this alternate lane thing was hugely successful. And I'm gonna brag on you guys because not only was it successful in the room of the W. W is the other side, which was more adversarial. The J. P. C. I saw that. Oh, this is the first time that I can think of in our history that this group, this union, came with something intelligent and they could get behind and go. Wow,
it was you knew in your homework. It's fresh, It's flexible. We're adjusting to the times that everyone's feeling these pain points because the J. P. C yeah, yeah. Um,
exactly. It was a consideration of the other side.
It wasn't adversarial that's so important. And the w W process. This last commercials one you were talking about, the relationship between membership, membership leaders and staff. I thought it was It was like, you know, the opposite of a perfect storm. It was just a great marriage of you needed the people in the room that had the history of past negotiations to explain why things are the way they are. Because a lot of times you're like, Why is it this? So it's because this is 12 W. W. And 12 you know, negotiations is why we're here. So you need that push back. But staff also needs to hear when I'm in the room and my auditions and this and that. The people that are working the contract they need to hear what's going on there
and they don't do that in there. So and they'll
hear it better If here calm, intelligent and you show up more than once, right? I I am not sorry. I can't take people seriously who show up, complain, but maybe have an idea and then leave.
Actually, I was just I was just saying
I ran into somebody at that when I was at the Dog park this morning and start talking. He's an actor. Whatever. He told me, Um, he's like,
Yes, So what is
going on with the commercials? You know, I I joined in 89 nothing's happening. What's going on? And I was like, Oh, I was actually on the negotiating committee. I can tell you a little bit about what's going on in
piece. He was like, But what about this? What about this? As I
the nuances of how our contract works and traditional contract and the new contract, and I said, We have a one year MP, You and he said, What's an MP? You said it's a maximum period of use and again education. That's fine, which was is incredible, huge,
enormous enormous point
with this guy. Was that ultimately he was like, You know what? I actually don't know how it works. I just My agent sent me a check and I don't even know if I trust my agents. And so listen, that's fine. That's a majority of people out there. Does it help me as a performer in my category to know all this stuff? I mean, that's up in the
things may have taken a toll on my creative life, but I
definitely feel stronger, more empowered as a person so we
can get into the model. U P M is MP MP. You Rob, don't you explain? It
used to be 21 months and in the traditional, which still exists contract that still exists. Correct. But in the alternate versions, it's only one
year's wine. The air just huge. That's
hit and asked that we're going. I hope this works and it's working. It's gonna be a beautiful thing. I just wanted to say about s so you guys create this great Great.
So we Yeah, we definitely We put something out there. It was a catalyst for some change. We saw people like Take a breath or taking it in. It was answering some of the members, you know, frustrations and requests for something to change. And a week later, staff came up with their own. Now I don't think that was like, Oh, they can do all this in a week. This is all sort of marinating. It's kind of I was saying, It's like, How did the movement Expressionism? Who created that? Well, it was It was all around the world and responding to the way things were going in the world, and everyone here was responding. So we put that up there. Staff came up with one New York came up with on and I think Los Angeles came up with another one. So we had four models that we were working with, and then members themselves
W. W S volunteered their numbers, their earnings, which is, you know, a very courageous, vulnerable thing. Thio, I booked this commercial. This is how much I've made, um, and ran those numbers through these different models and it became clear what parts of those models worked and what didn't work because sometimes you made tremendous amount, which you know we want, but the people who are gonna hire as probably won't go for that. And then we did that in New York as well.
That's what you guys did. That New York
ass hugely vulnerable there. Oh, my God.
You're like this is it? And okay, here I am. It's really But you had toe created that environment for them to do that. They saw the excitement of it.
Yeah, well, there's honestly, there was. Listen, it was there was an environment in those rooms. And, Kevin, you can tell me like it. It wasn't all Buddy, buddy, you know, there was a lot of disagreement, but there was such, uh, don't get emotional. Here was such a commitment, um, to what we were working towards to help members that people put aside what? That that vulnerable piece of like, I've only made this much in the last two years next to one of ah, one of our members, who's a spokesperson who, like every time we were out, we saw him on TV and he brought in a stack of his of his paychecks. That was like, I mean, literally, like, 45 inches tall and set it down, and we ran those numbers. And, um, I mean that to me. That's what union service is about. It's It doesn't mean that we're all gonna be friends. Um, it doesn't mean that we're gonna agree with everything, but we're all working towards the same goal, and I respect that. And I honor that.
And also the very fact that someone may brought in that some guy brought in this. They're equal well, And what they've rock
for our listeners. You're making two different gestures.
Oh, yeah, you're right. Thank you. Tell me what I
make. There was out an inch that's 1/2 inch okay, half inch and then a foot.
Yeah, that's the difference in the stacks of and very good. That's what I think. That's what's so amazing. We're talking. That's like kind of union working. That's kind of our thing. It's like no politics, no factions. It's solutions and ideas for the betterment of our membership are complete. Membership wins the day Like that's what we're finding. Do we want
to talk about the details? The numbers in the alternate compensation structure
We can we can. I just want to see oh,
Katie, uh, to our meeting and gave. Ah, just blew the room away with her presentation and we just set this up a week early. We admitted her in her apartment and walk in, and I'm like, going I would never be in the same room with any of you.
I don't love you and like you
and admire you. It's just that I wasn't exposed to you. I just wasn't in my circle.
And I go. That's the beautiful thing about union working. And then you apply what you're doing. And in graduate graduate school toe, what are issues? Were you bring it to our meeting and I'm like, Oh, that's exactly the right person at the right time to deliver this message.
Yeah, because what
some tears from you
came to our meeting for our listener. She came to a meeting after after the contract was tentatively agreed upon by our national board, but we had a union working meeting where it was a packed house. It felt like a really old school. Yeah, my agents were there was fantastic agents were there and a bunch of members were there, and I saw a lot of brand new faces that I haven't seen anything and Katie did this presentation explaining all the new things and our new commercial contract. Your new alternative argument structures with, like, Power point presentation. So is visually stimulating. She ran it like a boss, and the room was just It was It was It was
like, What was so funny also
is that there were still that guy going. What
about my trailer? It's kind of like, yeah, and he finally
stopped into, in fact, even did a 31 80.
But it was That was kind
of the power of intelligent design and your passion for for something. And we saw it. It was there. It was
right. Plus, you could just feel it in the room. I think you could feel the majority of people like nodding, their heads going all the questions I had all the things that I was like, what about were answered and there was like, Oh, that's that's a good idea. You muttering that
presentation into an episode of this podcast or
yeah, yeah. I mean, I have built it.
I would love to be able to, you know, share two other
Well, moment. We should film you doing your presentation post that? Because the visuals are great.
You're your slides were great. Do you want to describe very slight?
Well, it'll be a detailed for our
patriarch of supporters.
Yeah, I had a question for you,
too, because again, Rob and I weren't on the negotiating committee. We were all at the W. W is all four of us. But Kevin and Katie were there. You were in New York for six weeks in February and March, and you guys were in the trenches and you were there. How does it feel to see something that's been bandied about for years? We all knew that this contract can't just be the same old same old with a five verse, 6% increase on things across the board. But it's still that, you know, telephone book of a contract. How does it feel now, after it's been agreed upon tentatively and voted 96%? Yes, on by them that you know, June 1st we're days away from it going, you know, in as this is our new contract, how does that? I mean, how can you describe how that feels?
We'll definitely feels better than the 20
16 theme sort of catalyst
that that started Union working for sure
feel very proud of what we did. Yes, and it was hard and stressful on dhe. We left with the unanimity, but we had some disagreements along the way. And we good. We change each other's mind. We we listen to the J. P. C. We listen to New York concerns, too. De ces concerns whatever does. And then we I think we all felt really good. About what? Yeah, what we came up with and it was it was different, right? I mean, we have this new compensation structure has many significant differences from that first thing you proposed in W. W. But new editing provisions laying the groundwork for addressable commercials work in front of that, which is
the first time that we're ahead of the curve on a new technology.
And I will say also that, um, very first day of negotiations, I was talking with the other Katie whether we should go up and say hi to the chief negotiator of the J. P. C. And we were debating about that and such. And then we decided we're gonna do it and we turn around. She was gone. But then on the very last day,
Oh, man, we're
like friends shook her hand, said thank you. And, um, it was just a different It was different.
It was different from three years
ago Is for people
different. Different people, different attitude, different goals is different, is good.
The urgency for everyone involved was there in this way that it was It was now or never to make some bold changes. And, um, yeah, not only proud, frankly, I feel relieved.
I feel so I feel relieved. And
but people are coming and saying that they feel hopeful, which is great with me. Personally, there is nothing for me that I feel like was left on the table that wasn't wasn't addressed. We were exhaustive in our like, every possible outcome. We debated, we saw it through and, you know, okay, Cave until did a great job setting our negotiating committee because she had a wonderful, um, variety of people who had different strength. We all have different strengths, and she she played upon that. That's union working as well
and that you guys could have some more women. That's all I'm gonna say a lot more than your cover. We're,
uh we're addressing. We're addressing that and we'll talk about that. Another bike out. What I want to talk about is, um, there's there's a certain makeup for like when we were talking to Shawn or other people that we have a guest that brings them to this point in their life. So I want to know a little bit about you. Where you from?
Oh, I grew up in Alaska. Yep. Born reason.
Typical. Typical. So, yeah. Wrestled. Grizzly. No, no, no.
My dad's from Long Island. Like we went
camping twice, So you just sort of ended up there. Really? Yeah. I didn't
really get into fishing and going hiking and four wheeling and all that stuff until, um, until I left. I just sort of arrived in Alaska, and I'm like,
I want I want some people. Any
subculture. I need some. This have been out. I was We call it outside, like so I've been outside for Well, I left when I was 18 and I've lived in New York, lived in L. A. I've lived in Portland, have lived in Seattle with the school in Connecticut, and so now I'm like, Oh, I just wanna I just keep going back home in the summers to go fishing and get away from all this stuff. Get my brain back. I love fishing. I love fishing.
So what is it about your upbringing that major, the kind of person that, uh, maybe saw grown and one to write it screaming about
getting that deep in
I'd like to know, I would like to know about you as a person.
There's a lot of again we're all completely different just in this room. We're talking about the hundreds and even thousands of our members.
Honestly, our union is so incredible that way because we've got we've got every single age we've got, every single race, ethnicity, um, against socioeconomic status of bringing disability. And it's from all over the country. We have the most varied union, and I'm just so proud to be a part of it.
It makes it
more challenging sometimes, toe. Also find that that the meeting point. But I mean in that complicated Venn diagram right there in the middle, where all actors on we wanna work.
a student government nerd. I s Oh, yeah, my campaign slogan for class president was vote for Katie, the red cheek lady on. I want Waas did that. I was a gymnast. Um, from the time I was five.
sport, but really individual, which, you know, Same with acting team sport. But you're an individual. Um, I
Yeah, I I grew up
alone a lot. Like my parents weren't around a lot. Um and ah, I've got a brother. We don't really get along. Um um, but there's a circuitous like I was saying before I grew up with nurses, so there's a securitised discussion and talking that never really went anywhere. So I've in an effort to try to really connect and understand and maybe have relationships with challenging family members, I find myself trying to be effective in communicating really listening and ah, yeah, so it hasn't necessarily worked there, but it served me and other area. Yes, yes. You know, you know, sort of the sacred wound takes you to your greatest gift.
Uh, also, uh, this is something we always like to ask our guest. What is your best moment being in the union or acting or anything that has happened in the career
okay, Like, um, So I had the opportunity to go home to Alaska to work, and it was It was definitely my biggest role. I was working opposite Nicolas Cage and John Cusack. My semen John Cusack got cut out, but it was based on a true story about Alaska serial killer. Ah, he called the Butcher Baker. And I grew up with these stories and new people who, like, had family members that were killed for victims. And everybody sort of had a had a butcher Baker story. And so I got to go up there and be a, um my character was really representative of the community that was a sister of ah, Victim e played a real person. Those were the best stories for me. I loved that. And I got to be the voice of my fellow Alaskans. And then I was in a scene with Nick Cage and in the scene, Um, I really drive the scene. Um, and that was really empowering because, you know, going up against an Oscar winner is a little intimidating, but I gave him what for, And and I felt really great about it. So I got to represent my
fellow. After the name of the movie, it's called the frozen ground. Go rent frozen ground. You can find it, Mister, Is there still time? I do want to
say like my proudest like union Union moment. Uh, union experience that kitchen table group is is my most inspiring work. And this contract is I feel I I'm sort of taking a breather at this point. Um, but it has been the most. It has been the most inspiring bit of collaboration on behalf of others.
You were here, Jin, that we want to thank you for being in service. Thank you for the rest of the members. And, uh, thank you for your intelligence. Your passion. I think your dog.
00 thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Luna,
thank you so much for coming your eyes. It because I wanted to say one more. Thing is they're opposed to their posts. Are we wrapping? Don't you say one more thing. Thank you. Okay. Great.
Um, I wanted to talk about the importance of union working as a grassroots group in its partnership with the union itself. Sometimes people get confused cause it's union working, and we've got the union you guys as members, as members, we have a power with our voice and action that our union doesn't have. Our union staff members don't have because of certain labor laws and things of that nature. But we, as members can do and say things that they can't necessarily say. So that's why it's a partnership. It's really important to understand. As a member leader, I understand what they can't do, and it's been frustrating as an individual. But having union working as a committed grassroots group that is outside of the union but works with them has made it a powerful force. And I think that's also why our contract got ratified.
The way that it did were like a tugboat trying to get that big. Are
you moving in the other?
And you know what you're doing? You guys are the best barge murmur
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